Edify and Higher Education

From socioeconomic inaccessibility to cultural insensitivity, American universities are undergoing rapid growing pains as its students and faculty become aware of its outdated roots.  This episode of the Edify Justice Advocate Podcast opens a dialogue to uncover the roots of isolation and disconnect that students of color often feel at institutions of higher education, through the lens of communication and community.

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Transcript

Nicole Johnson: 0:10

On the journey to dismantling white supremacy throughout various American institutions, this edify podcast installation takes on the interior life of students experiencing racism in higher education. What does it mean to exist in an institution that was built on tenants of exclusivity? What does it mean to achieve equity on an inequitable foundation? From socio economic and accessibility to cultural insensitivity? American universities are undergoing rapid growing pains as its students and faculty become aware of its outdated roots. Sahar Guerra, Amis Joseph and I are three individuals who have experienced New York University's curriculum and culture firsthand. And today, we're in dialogue to uncover the roots of isolation and disconnect that students of color often feel it institutions of higher education through the lens of communication, and community. I'm Nicole Johnson, your host, glad to have you with us. We are on a mission to center the experiences of people of color. Although dismantling systemic oppression requires us to understand and strategize about the barriers to wellness and utilize our privilege and power to shift systems. We also must actively begin shifting our mindsets to spend time with the aspirations and thought leadership of people of color. I find in higher ed, there's a great deal of consulting people of color instead of actively letting people of color imagine and lead. Let's start with the voice of Zaha Guerra. We're here with Saha Guerrero Saha is an NYU freshman studying public policy and social and cultural analysis at the College of Arts and Sciences. Sahaj is also a fellow in the higher education pod at Harriet Tubman effect, and is the social media head for the Young Lords collective. Sahaj is also such a boss and I have known him throughout his work at PPHS as a high schooler, but now I get a chance to be in the same building with him or the same campus at NYU saw how was the president of the PPS Democrats and led so many students in the development of that organization while he was a senior there. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast, excited to just kind of navigate a conversation about our lives at NYU. How're you doing, Saha?

Saha Guerrero: 2:43

I'm doing great. I mean, it's an honor to be here. And I'm so so happy to be talking to you right now. Seriously, it's making my day.

Nicole Johnson: 2:50

I know, right? We do have a lot to talk about. We're both kind of navigating a great deal of like, whether it's social aggressions or white supremacy, culture or just trying to get settled. I am studying at NYU as a doctoral student, I have been here for far too long. But I am happy though, to be able to support people like Saha in their next steps in higher education. I remember at the beginning of my higher ed experience, I was not expecting for my classrooms to feel as white as they were, I was consistently the person that said at the like head of the roundtable at Gallatin when I first started, and I would be the main person that we would talk to about anything related to race. And then weirdly, in my doctoral program, I walked into an orientation room for my educational theater program. And I was like, I am the only if not one of the small amount of black and brown people in this room. Want to know if you felt that perhaps not at the College of Arts and Sciences, but tell me what was your first experience sitting down in the NYU classroom?

Saha Guerrero: 3:52

I mean, when I went in there, there was a huge shift from how was like a PBS in high school. At PBS, it was a diverse school in terms of the students, I wouldn't say faculty, but for the students, and it felt like a community and I felt like I was at home. You know, it's like that natural solidarity amongst people of color, including queer people as well. So when I went to NYU in majority My classes are, they're quite diverse. But I would say it was mainly in the, the professors, and the conversations are being had in class and going in there and being a little bit nervous. And obviously, it's normal to be nervous on, let's say, a first day of school, especially starting college at NYU, but I noticed there was a bit there was a depletion of confidence.

Nicole Johnson: 4:45

So we're here with Robert Gould. He's the Vice President of Strategic Enrollment Management at Augsburg University. He has a strong commitment to belonging and hosts a bomb monthly belonging session that I am very thankful for because that is We've done a great deal of transformation in those sessions, even though he may not know that his commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion is so evident in our work as consultant and leader within the higher education space. And he just has a really strong radar for deep relationships, and has been supporting me as a founder of Harriet Tubman effect for the past year. So excited to have you on this. And excited to kind of talk about how we met on zoom in such a random way. Maybe we can start there. I'd love to know what actually encouraged you. Maybe looking back on it a year now. And

Robert Gould: 5:35

yeah, I really think Nicole, it was, it was a chance encounter is how I would refer to it as there was something about what I saw in the the edify, and I think it was on your LinkedIn, just with COVID. And with the Zoom world, I was able to take a lot of chances that I would never have you ever taken an open room before. And I just reached out to you and said, can we connect some time and then I think the first call we had was just an I hate to use these glamorous words magical encounter. From that point on, we didn't really understand why we had connected and how we connected but we didn't worry about it anymore, because we got on with the work.

Nicole Johnson: 6:15

I do also recall the fact that I felt this sense of excitement that someone was interested in my work from a university, you know, somewhere in the middle of the country. But there was this sense of recognition that I really appreciated, and was just willing to just jump into conversations with people who were excited to navigate the work because I had been pulling teeth in some respects trying to introduce people to my edify work in some industries. Theater really grabbed hold of it, but the higher ed space was difficult, and I just was really fascinated that someone with your title felt that I could be of service I do then also remember it turning very easily into the we're going to talk about some really deep things over the next couple of years and was thrilled to be speaking to a wide ally. That off the bat didn't need ongoing like education with me it felt in many ways that you had done a lot of education. So I'm here with Amos Joseph, he has a master's degree from the higher education and student affairs program at NYU Steinhardt. He recently graduated, along with several other of my classmates that I'm so proud of. But before he left, he was also the treasurer of the Graduate Student Organization. Amos was also a prominent leader in the Journal of Student Affairs, and he was the residence hall Resource Manager from 2019 to 2022, where he was responsible for key residence hall operations as a part of building that leadership team. And he also liaised with internal and external stakeholders to enhance the student housing experience. So proud of him. So thankful to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

Amos Joseph: 8:07

Hi, thanks for having me

Nicole Johnson: 8:09

my pleasure. Part one: barriers, I think people forget that in the higher education institute, it is not just about how we individually are perpetuating these white supremacy cultures, it's about how our systems manifest them into our culture. And culture is so intangible, sometimes peer in NYU, and the university, the culture, the intangible things that we are experiencing, they feel like, sometimes bars, like you feel like you want to be able to say something, but whether it's the bureaucracy, whether it's the classroom norms and behaviors, we look at the list of white supremacy, culture characteristics, and we really think, yeah, we should be able to find these in every institute. But then, with the higher universities, I do feel like they are so hard to detect, or perhaps like there's this slimy feeling about calling them out. I want to hear your thoughts about like, thinking about the manifestation of white supremacy culture in the classroom. How do you imagine people trying to separate them out and communicate about them in a higher ed space in comparison, perhaps like when you did it in high school?

Saha Guerrero: 9:25

Growing up as a New Yorker, I've always thought like, there's this notion of individualism, to make it for yourself, and you're sort of being independent on your own, like you're going on the subway by yourself. And then at NYU, I feel like there, like you said, there are a lot of these hidden white supremacy characteristics. And they like to put it under the guise that, oh, this is just a part of the culture of New York City yet to be independent. It's this notion of individualism and they'll put it on you, and it'll make you feel like you're the problem. But to a certain extent, the guests we're responsible for the decisions we make the choices we make, but we also have to realize it instead. tutions that were immersed in, and how they are, in fact responsible for the systemic oppression that they perpetuate consistently. And if we just continually view it through the perspective of you know, it's for ourselves, we have to make it on our own. And it's this notion of individualism. We're absolving these institutions have any culpability, you know, and that's the key problem.

Nicole Johnson: 10:22

Temo Kuhn, white supremacy culture characteristics talks about there being little experience or comfort working as a part of a team, people believe that they're responsible for solving problems alone, that shows up in silos at NYU in so many ways, and that is why bureaucracy continues to exist, because everyone is literally trying to say, I will be able to navigate this issue about communication and about student enrollment or about student registration by myself, I should be able to figure it out, I have four days for it. And then that four days turns into five weeks, because you're an individual trying to tackle one problem, right? Also accountability, if any goes up and down, not sideways to peers, or to those that the organization is set up to serve, I think NYU has a really hard time understanding if they are serving their teachers, and they're professors who are researchers, or us the students, I think it's because every single part of our journey, from the dorm room to the classroom, to the way that you walk into a building to get registered for something, everything is about an individual's experience. And then we're confused around why we don't feel like we belong, because we're not next to people. There is this unfortunate domino effect that happens when you train swathes of people within a university and then you send them out into the world. Without their without an interest, if they have no interest in joy, if they have no interest in their social wealth, or in their health, wealth, or in their time, wealth, meaning like the way that they spend their time on things that in fact, bring brightness to their life, they go out from this four year experience, or however long they're in the university, and they just go into their workspaces, and they create culture, their universities are like the pinnacle, I feel of culture sometimes. And I recognize that a lot of us come into them as people of color coming, we come into them in this very vibrant, lovely aura that we have. And then very quickly, that shift that we've been talking about happens, and you all of a sudden are feeling like I don't feel like answering a question in this room right now. And I don't feel like communicating with you after class. Whoever this teacher is, you know, it's an unfortunate thing that an institution that you pay for, actually dampens your feeling about just like your daily life, because you're spending so much time there. But what was the moment when you recognize that it was, in fact, the culture at NYU, and not something that was wrong with you, this is

Saha Guerrero: 13:00

I feel like the big thing that a lot of students of color face all the time. And, you know, I guess it was I'm at this middle of the fall semester. And it was in the class, I was just talking about the black Atlantic and my professors, black woman, all my other professors were white, and she was the only professor of color. And she was teaching a course about the black Atlantic and the African diaspora and putting history in context of systems of oppression and talking with the truth. And I felt so seen in that class, because she was so forthcoming, and always encouraging, like, please talk to me with Office Hours. And I went up to her one day, and, you know, it was like, hey, I want to just get some feedback on a paper, and then go to our office, and we just have such a nice conversation about like, our personal lives, too. And in my other classes, it was quite the opposite. You know, like I was like, in like political science class, where it was like, predominantly white in the class. And a lot of it, you know, it was like people playing, you know, stereotypical devil's advocate, and like debating human rights. And talking about current issues, just completely taken out the context of, you know, the racism we're dealing with today, and the other systems of oppression. And I felt like in that class, I've had that hesitancy to participate, and didn't feel like I was able to be my true self and be that leader and participate a lot. And you made me realize, like, oh, wait, have you thought about it? That maybe it's the institution at NYU in a culture here that is making fuel this way. And you notice in my introduction, that I was not myself, and I was like, a little bit soft spoken, and I wasn't fully there. And you were like, I noticed that shift and you were like, what's going on? Let's talk about it. And then I realized, okay, it's it's not my fault. And I feel like a lot of us will have the tendency to blame ourselves. And especially talking about like, you know, the individualism here at NYU, oh, maybe it's me, not reaching out or maybe on the one Who's the problem here? Even though in reality, it's like, yeah, we make our own decisions and stuff. But what about the people who are leading institutions written and what we're a part of. And that's where I started to realize, Wait, this is the result of a culture that is being perpetuated at the expense of the livelihood of students of color, like me, someone who was very outspoken and very passionate and over ambitious, and to see that ambitious ambition dwindle, that was like, a real red flag.

Nicole Johnson: 15:33

And I just was so frustrated with the university for what they had done to me with my finances, and how they had taken advantage of me as a grad assistant, which is happening all across the country for people who are in grad programs. Oh, yeah. But then I was just like, but then it's been four months, and you've taken the joy from someone who has so actively mobilized communities of young people. And it's like, I was like that that can't happen this year. And I was like, you must, you must be, we must be doing some work together, I need you to continue to know who you are. But it's unfortunate because at NYU, there are just no, there are not as many leaders of color. And so it's those of us who are around, are able to like find a student of color and say, Hey, let me just make sure that you can remember who you are that although you're in a room with like a different culture, the way that black and brown people engage in communicating rooms is unfortunately sometimes different than the institutions that were a part of. And I won't call it unfortunate. In many rooms, especially in Harriet Tubman of freq. We have beautiful integrated rooms that are like people are all together of different cultures and sharing with one another and like feeling opened as talk, but like that requires leadership, like we've been talking about to set the tone for so many voices. And it is so much easier when there are more people of color who are in leadership positions. Robert over at Augsburg University is navigating a long term vision for systemic change. We begin by understanding the makeup of his ecosystem. So tell us a little bit about the demographic of Augsburg, just so that we have it and then go into what the long term hope is.

Robert Gould: 17:20

Our undergraduate population of students about 2000 is majority where we are a majority minority serving institution with 65% of our students bipoc. And we have over 50% of our students are first generation and Pell eligible. So we are one of the most unique institutions in Minnesota and probably in the country in some ways, because it has been part of our mission for access for the last 15 years. And if you have something as part of your mission, you're living and breathing it every day, it actually ends up happening. And I can say that it happened faster than we happened. And we didn't change rapidly enough with it as it was happening. And so one example of that is the staff that I I came here four years ago, was majority white. And that was at a time where we were most likely in the 50% range of bipoc students joining us. And so, you know, instantly, it's the look in the mirror of how can we be recruiting the students that we serve at the table today? And the answer is we cannot, we have to change, we have to change ourselves. But then we have to change the makeup of the division. And all of that represented enormous challenge. So the changing ourselves, we talked a lot about changing the look of our division in terms of staffing, was RIT. With challenges of our profession, there is no pipeline of bipoc professionals in the admissions profession, or recruitment profession. So we had to take a step back and decide how are we going to create that pipeline of whether it's graduates or people that are coming from other professions in order to have some diversity on our team that's qualified and competitive, and that we can send on further to the profession as as they grow in the profession become directors or vice presidents, and presidents of universities that involve things like having connections outside the workplace and establishing those connections for these individuals as an opportunity, not expecting them to figure that out, expecting them to create that network because they're brand new to the profession, and they need to have an outlet to talk about what they are experiencing. And so Nicole, we talked about a mentor group that you hosted for new staff that I had, and then we connected that with a mentor on campus for each of these individuals. And that could have been a faculty member or staff or even a student. And we're continuing that practice now and I think it is We have a big problem like everyone in this world has today with turnover. So it's not just about creating a team that represents the students, it's keeping a team that represents our students. And so we've continued on with a lot of different activities related to belonging. And we do check ins at our division meeting that are refreshing, because we have different topics that we talk about where we are personally. And it really makes a difference.

Nicole Johnson: 20:30

Yeah, I know, there was so much intention in your di posture, but you are a leader in a space that although you have beautiful, genuinely innovative ideas around diversity, equity inclusion that we worked on together, you still have a lot of barriers within a traditional institution that are always going to happen, they're going to happen for every leader who's trying to do something different, you are going to also be surrounded by traditional systems. Roberts posture vehemently puts voices of color at the front to lead and strategize. And we believe so in a very healthy way. That being said, it's also rather common for black and brown voices to take on too much responsibility in higher ed settings, especially when bureaucracy seems to pause operations and supporting students of color, thereby creating such a gap that people of color feel they have to bridge. Amos tells us more. I think black leaders specifically in higher education, there is this urge or this like, sense of responsibility that we take on that? I'm curious about where that comes from, for both of us? And if it's something that's like, in our like, lineage? Or if it's like, we arrive on these scenes, and we're like, all of this needs changing? Can we figure out how to best do that? Where do you feel like it comes from comes from for you?

Amos Joseph: 21:54

I mean, I think it comes from a realization that like this space that I'm in that I'm trying to try my best to thrive in wasn't necessarily designed for me. And so how do I make it work for me? And how do I make it work for those who look like me? And so a lot of my thinking was, well, let me find where there is space for black people in higher education. Let me try to uncover how we could promote some kind of development for ourselves, or some kind of program that would lead to development for ourselves. And so a lot of my research, a lot of my, my writings, all of my discussions in class were like, Nah, but where are all the black people? And what are we doing for them? And how, how do we sustain it, you know, and so, I really wanted to, I guess, channel that energy, because it wasn't like, I don't think I knew where it was coming from, like, I don't I don't know if it was like an ancestral call of like, you must change things down. But I definitely do feel like there was an urgency because it's like, well, if this is subpar for me, and this time, I can't imagine what it'd be like for my younger brothers and sisters, for my nieces and nephews, you know? And so, what can I do to help them? What can I do to prepare them? What can I do to set this up for them in the future? It led me to want to understand well, okay, if this program is it really designed for me to conceptualize what the future of higher ed is, let me better understand what the present nature is, and how I can make changes there.

Nicole Johnson: 23:33

Where do you feel you've noticed systemic oppression manifest the most, I would

Amos Joseph: 23:39

have to say, in learning about higher education, the history of how it started the history of like how it's developed over time, I think you can very quickly pinpoint that as the birth of systemic oppression, right? Higher education was formed in a way that was very exclusive. And it continued to be that over time, and so to get to the present day, where we have the ability for the majority of people to be able to go to college, the equity and how that equity is kind of shared, doesn't really support that ideal of Yes, education is available for all. And so in the he's a program specifically, I feel like there are a variety of programs, a variety of initiatives that kind of help to promote equity. And you can see the desire for it through the faculty through the work that they're doing to support this program. But it's hard to feel it. It's hard as a student to like, to kind of feel that yes, this feels like home or this feels like a a space that was designed with me in mind. You know, it took me a while to recognize that this was a space for me and I think A large part of that was because I was either the only black student or the only black male. In my class, there was a pivotal moment in one of my classes. And this was around the time, there was a shooting of a kid who was shot in his car after he was pulled over. And day of I had a higher education, a leadership higher education course. And my professor at the time, wanted to do like a check in at the beginning of class to like, see how everyone's doing. And he said something that didn't really sit well with me. And it made me very, very uncomfortable and made me realize, like, Yeah, this is not a space for me. And if no one else is going to voice that, as a course teaching about leadership in higher education, we're not addressing what's happening in the world and and who it's happening to, then I don't think this is the space that I want to be in. And so I tried my best to restrain and wait till class was over, or wait till the end of class to like, say something, but like, I just couldn't hold it in any longer. And I derailed class because, like, we need to talk about this. And the amount of times and Ackles that I got, after I said what I said, it's just like, Well, I mean, why don't you say that before? Like, what, why you got to wait for me to open, open up the conversation.

Nicole Johnson: 26:31

Yeah, it's also so disappointing, because it is always that singular black or brown person who has to open up the floodgates. As if that is our job. In addition to being students who are also working in other jobs, it's like you have three jobs on a given day, if you are a higher education student that is a person of color. And sometimes it's disappointing because you're in these liberal institutions. And you're imagining that there's going to be a sense of cultural competency or cultural humility, this systemic issues of American higher education set everyone up. For a difficult time, everyone across the board, no matter what your race, or your background is, it's just a system that's so outdated that we haven't set up any type of norms, policies and behaviors that help people to thrive and to feel well, but then because people of color in America and that's not even the additional layer of being an immigrant, there are barriers that I think are in many ways, unseen by the majority of decision makers in higher ed institution. Part two, research. In the spring of 2021, Saha and Harriet Tubman effect produced a culture week focused on the health and wellness of people of color, and culminated the week with a dismantling systemic oppression workshop, saw a segment of the workshop focused on his in depth research about the key barriers to resisting white supremacy culture in higher education. Tell me about your research and the organization that you're doing the research for, if you don't mind, just to give us a little bit of settling into it.

Saha Guerrero: 28:18

Higher Education Research Pod within Harriet Tubman effect. And we're talking about the key barriers that perpetuate systemic oppression in higher education, and the research so I'm gonna start conducting and putting all together is going to talk about the little things classroom discussions, especially with the professors, like who are the professors, are they defining the characteristics of white supremacy culture that are present within the classroom, you know, and a lot of that can be between No, we read a couple documents in the past. It was like power hoarding, perfectionism. We think those things, not through the framework of white supremacy culture, but those are like the key pillars, that proper white supremacy and it's been there for centuries, you know, from slavery to today. I feel like through the work I'm doing for Harriet Tubman effect, and understanding these key barriers and having you as a mentor as well, really understanding you know what, I think this is a time for me to shed that depletion of confidence because now I understand the knowledge.

Nicole Johnson: 29:28

People have all kinds of strengthening their understanding of the key barriers, but white allies like Robert are sometimes navigating the steps before even getting to the education and the relationships necessary for sustainable social change.

Robert Gould: 29:42

I think it is important to share a little bit about how I got to that phone call. I will tell you that the last four years at Augsburg University has been the period of time where my eyes my heart and my soul have been opened the most in the DI belonging space Minneapolis Have you know it has been termed ground zero with the racial unrest. With George Floyd's death, I live on a block away from Lake Street where the majority of the third precinct was burned down and businesses and I was out with the protesters, I would say every night except for the night on the bridge when that horrible incident happened with the tractor trailer, but every night witnessing a country that I didn't recognize, which is witnessing armed National Guard, sort of pretty much pushing back military style on people expressing their First Amendment right. They were not helping with the building's burning, they were not helping with the looting and everything else, they were pushing back the voices that were there to talk about the injustice, and not just with George Floyd, but with years and years and years and years of injustice. So started with working with the IDI intercultural Development Inventory, and then a diversity certificate that Augsburg offers to all employees and faculty. It's a very unusual diversity certificate, it's a year long, pretty much certificate program, and you then renew it. It's taught by active practitioners, and there's a lot of role playing involved. And it is within diverse audiences, sometimes even students in the room. And that was really what gave me the platform. And then I went a little deeper. Unlike anybody, I got the certificate in about six months. I'm an overachiever when it comes to learning, and I like to do it fast. But then I entered into a year long cohort called undoing the tenants of white body supremacy. It was a year long cohort with 20 of my colleagues. And we basically went through the trauma of white supremacy in our own bodies, and then understanding the trauma of bipoc individuals as a result of as well to get this deep, deep, deep physical and somatic view of racism. And there was no simple way of, you know, trying to water it down or anything, it was deep, some of it hurt. Some of it was revealing at the age of 50, that I never had revealed to myself and lots of other my colleagues in the room. But I think those are the two things that were my foundation. And then I just was looking for the next step.

Nicole Johnson: 32:39

I think you actually might have been the first practitioner that I started doing one on one sessions with, and you spoiled me because you Sure enough, were like, Great, yeah, so like, challenge me here. And let's continue to add to step two, and like, asked me that question again. It was just such a fun, playful space, and joyful.

Robert Gould: 32:58

That was a very, very enlightening process for me when I was ready to go through. And I think I've told you a lot about this, Nicole, but the work that's related to edify and, and racial justice is for me healing. I think all of that together is where I think this work of posturing and action on your own behalf, not just learning everything, and then feeling like you have some sort of command of language and or theories of injustice, you're actually then inserting yourself into taking action and justifying your advocacy for others.

Nicole Johnson: 33:36

Yeah, and I glad that you brought up the DEI posture. You know, it's so funny, when I bring up the concept of a posture, I am surprised that people are like, please explain that more. Because it feels so simple for me to be like, yeah, there's a posture that you take on with this work, maybe because I'm a dancer, and I'm like, Yeah, this is the posture that I take on for ballet. But it also is a word that feels so familiar to me, because I believe dei to be a full body experience. And so you really jumped on and I don't think you were a person that actually asked me for further clarification around your posture. And it's totally fine to ask me for further clarification, but do tell me a little bit about your dei posture. And let me give listeners a little bit of an understanding of what it is. It's an exercise that feels like edify five steps, but expedited, and you have to ask yourself questions about your values, aligning yourself to those values, sharing out your identity, but then holding yourself accountable to the and this is what will happen in 2022 or 2023. And you bullet, different types of large scale systemic shifts that you're going to do within your leadership or within the system. And then you rate yourself according to how well you've done those things. So it's just a fun exercise.

Robert Gould: 34:50

I think doing it one on one gave me a chance to be more vulnerable. And ask for that connection of support, not help Support. It's a big difference. Because I remember our first conversation, you were asking me questions, and I did not know how to verbalize them. I had them in my heart and in my head, but I didn't know how to verbalize them. And I never would be able to write them without having something crack in me to get that information out. And so that was the first step for us, I think, in the identity phase of it. And then you talk about this accountability. And I tell you, I think I told you back then, I began to wake up in the morning, with sort of accountability, thoughts about things that were beyond my posture and things that I was tracking. And that was the creative side of it for me of things that I wasn't thinking about before. Now, I began to think about them. Because of those uses of my power and privilege along the way, and how it was rating myself on those and how I thought I could grow in them, it just became of the way I breathe. Then what the ultimate posture exercise gave me was a foundation to work from, and we did it a year ago, and I can think it's already changed dramatically.

Nicole Johnson: 36:06

At Harriet Tubman effect, we are building out a resource called the planting trees glossary. The planting trees glossary helps us to have examples for shifting our ecosystems. Just like when you plant a tree in a broken down area, and you plant the tree in the soil, it helps with soil erosion, it also helps with the larger ecosystem. And our commitment to planting trees in our workplaces is to say that although we are dismantling systemic oppression, we are also planting ideas, resources, and initiatives that are moving us towards creating more equitable, inclusive environments. In many ways. It's so fascinating that people need examples of how to engage in a compassionate way how to build a system, or an exercise or resource that is empathy driven. And the glossary is set up so that there is no excuse that you have an example of someone who did it in a different industry. And all you have to do is try it in your space, we're really doing a lot of hand holding and building out these glossaries in ways that will like be intriguing and exciting for people's eyes to look through it and to see beautiful imagery, but then also like a tangible example of how it is possible to manifest in your workspace. These wealth pillars are integral to the conversation about uncovering the experiences of marginalized people working and learning and predominantly white institutions. Amos and I continue our conversation here about what's missing in our higher ed learning experiences. Let me go back and say that Harriet Tubman effect was built and kind of developed from that personal urge of mine to that I'm not sure where it comes from. But I have been connecting it primarily to the stories that I've heard of the past that I want to be a part of Harriet story. And I developed Harriet Tubman effect, because I knew that there was this mechanism to helping people run towards freedom, kind of unlocking all of our fears and saying, we can move forward with this with gusto and with like a sense of like, we deserve freedom. And I sense that at the end of my master's program, so that when I stepped into the role of president in GSO in my PhD, I recognize that not only were we missing programs that were for us, but designed by us, right, and Harriet Tubman effect was this space where I was actively looking for leaders who had the same type of research, excitement and enthusiasm that you did. And you had a little bit of research that I was really thrilled about as it relates to your visa program.

Amos Joseph: 39:02

Right. And that's largely the reason why I decided to continue with my degree, and why I decided to focus my research on uncovering the experiences of left hired professionals and the experiences of students who are blocked in higher ed. And yeah, it's exactly what you said, right? The higher up you go, the less people call you receipt. And the likelihood of you seeing a majority of black people in senior leadership roles. Were mostly in the AI spaces. And so in a lot of the research that I did, and finding out what were the reasons why and finding out what were the barriers that we were being plagued with. A lot of it was this challenge of people viewing us or people acknowledging us in a way that seems like they're wrestling with their own issues, right? They're trying to understand our experience by relating or comparing it to their own. And because they don't have a way to justly do so without engaging in conversation that they are afraid to have. Right, like, they hesitate to take action, they hesitate to support, they hesitate to amplify our initiatives or our instincts. And that lack of support is what leads us to being left behind. And so I very quickly learned that, in order for me to feel like higher education was a path or a direction that I wanted to continue moving in, like I needed to understand, in what ways can I take action? And in what ways can I challenge the spaces that were creating their own ceilings for me, I'm not wanting to be restricted, like I don't, I don't like, I don't like going into something without a game plan or an end goal. And I saw that as, okay, like, if I think critically on each of these programs, I had the opportunity to help so many different kinds of students, so many different types of administrators, I'm able to support the callings of people who are in these roles, as opposed to just manipulating it in a way that makes me look good.

Nicole Johnson: 41:13

Yeah, it's, um, intention in stepping into higher ed administration. Certainly, it has a tragic kind of history, I feel like many people are in it for their own personal accolades. But because the quality of life of so many people are dependent upon these leaders, and the environments they create, it just become such a detrimental part of some people's experience when they go into a higher ed organization. And I feel like it ends up becoming so it compounds in such a way that we do have such a really large role in the health of people of color as they transition into the workforce. And perhaps we are if we don't have these kinds of leaders that are compassionate in the ways that you are because of your lived experience. And just because of just your personal intentions. If we don't have these kinds of leaders, we ended up creating workforces of people who are already burned out, who are already ready to give up when they get to that first job. And I feel it all the time. And I know that you had spoken to me and it felt like you were also really invigorated when I first came to you about Harriet Tubman effect, you were like my research is aimed at developing things that obviously are dismantling all the systemic oppression, barriers that you mentioned. But would you kind of go on a kind of game of imagining with me now and tell our listeners a little bit about if you could imagine a project or an activity that would really elevate and identify people of color within higher ed spaces or dismantle systemic oppression? What kind of activity would that be?

Amos Joseph: 42:50

Yeah, I mean, funnily enough, we're on a podcast. But the idea that I had originally was a podcast that would kind of branch into uncovering the lived experiences of black students and black professionals in higher education. Because it is a an interesting space for you to be a professional in higher ed, who is trying to really like, understand what your institution's stance on student activism really is, and how as a professional, you can support your students who feel wronged, in their right to speak their voices and do so safely, right. And so as an administrator, it's like, well, I also feel this urge because I also am one who identifies with this hurt, and yet, my institution doesn't feel it appropriate for me to express myself. And now, they want me to be the one to tell my students, it is not appropriate for them to express themselves on this campus where they are attending. And so I definitely felt like the experiences of black students and black professionals, far and wide would provide space for us to really talk and unpack, how are we feeling in these institutional spaces, but also understand the vastness of the types of roles that we take on, right, because as a student leader, or as a student at an institution, you can be so many different types of student leader roles, if I can help illuminate the spaces where these people are, and the spaces and the roles and the types of roles that they're in. I can help bridge connections that weren't really seen, or that weren't really available that weren't really known of and maybe that can help somebody else's journey. Maybe that can help a student who wasn't really sure about this institution, but heard this voice and heard about the things that they're trying to do to amplify or to help students that look like them. And because of that, that information that was shared or that story that was shared, they found somebody that they can then connect and they can then latch on to you and that would help us push our our people for Word.

Nicole Johnson: 45:01

Yeah, I realize communication is a passion of yours. And I think we always underestimate the power of people being able to understand what's going on in an area that they're not currently occupying. So the simple kind of methods of things like newsletters or podcasts, or social media feeds, they are such innovative steps into the future that I think we have literally taken for granted. I think we take it for granted, because I'm recognizing that when people make these connections, even in the Harriet Tubman effect community, they feel really monumental that you've met someone who has a similar research line or you meet someone who you're like, Yeah, I'm going through that part of my healing journey, too. And you build relationship. Part three, solutions. College is supposed to be a communal experience. It's like what people know about in the social context of it. And I think the white supremacy, culture characteristics, specifically individualism, and then of course, the sense of like perfectionism, and not knowing who really has power, and what space is those things lead to a lack of belonging, because we're all trying to figure out how to go down our one track. The question is, Who do you think is responsible for building solutions around belonging in our higher ed institutions? Does it have to be students like you did during the pandemic? Or should it be admin staff, professors,

Saha Guerrero: 46:42

I feel like, you know, no matter what Speaking for myself, I'm always going to take matters into my own hands, whenever there's anything wrong. And whenever I have like that passion, to change something, I will do whatever I can, I will drop everything I'm doing and do whatever I can to pursue that and try to fix it. That's just who I am. And I noticed that a lot of people in my generation have that same mindset as well. I'm always grateful that I feel like student activist organizations have the power to inspire the adults, you know, I feel like it's, it's usually should be the other way around. I think students should always be encouraged to find ways to institute change and make their voices heard. But at the end of the day, I feel like it's up to the institutions and the leaders of these institutions who are able to, like push that button in a way, they have like that real real power to like, enact change in a second. And it's, it's really disappointing when there's just complacency. And you're seeing it from adults who can also look up to certain figures, and they ought to be leaders that we can be inspired by all the time. Also, it does become a bit disappointing when you know, there's a lack of care, or when they're not speaking out on things.

Nicole Johnson: 47:53

Yeah, and you brought up this concept of like leadership, I find that in the majority of my work with higher ed institutions, is that we are lacking basic values based leadership. So it's the idea of having a value, that you then align with your ongoing actions or several values. And most of the time, it's because people have not communicated their values out loud or written them down. But it does seem to be that most likely we're setting culture, while we're also trying to go to school, and we're paying for the space that we're in. And it feels a bit unfair, but the leadership that we don't have is what's causing, it's causing the frustration and the kind of the disgruntled nature that I think we have as student leaders, we know that that is like the bane of existence, when it comes to higher education is that everyone is just trying to get a degree to prove something to an employer at a later time. But when we're able to find the ability to apply our learning, which is rare for us, I think, at NYU. I think that's the joy of deciding to pay for more education, it's when you're able to get more of the passion and inspiration around those topics, and then go out into the world and feel like you have confidence to do something with it. That's not what our higher ed institutions are set up for at this moment. Nor are they set up for you to feel good around the people that you're with so that they become part of your social capital in the future. Obviously, the hiring work at NYU in universities across the nation, is going to be difficult because a lot of people of color aren't going to want to work in places that are harmful for them. Where people don't have community that is inclusive, where they will not feel like they belong. It's hard to do that. Like I do think that eventually some of us have to step into the roles and be in leadership at places like NYU so that we can set tone and that's why you see some of these teachers who are like your lone teacher of color, and they're still like doing the thing. And you just gotta like congratulate them from continuing to like, push against the culture and to create spaces that people feel like they can be themselves in been a long time that we've had institutions that are run by predominantly white leaders. And the shift is just going to take a little bit longer, I'm sure. One tool we've considered in this work is grace. I recently introduced my definition of grace in my TEDx Broadway talk. And the concept serves as a major focal point of Harriet Tubman effects upcoming New World program and accountability practice. More recently, I've been talking a lot about what grace is, and it's helping people meeting them in their thought and walking them back very intentionally, to hear what they're saying, or to perhaps even tell the same story over and over again, in different ways, which I know you've probably had to do with lots of your staff members, as you convince them of the usefulness of the work to say, we're going to engage in this work, because, but then we'll do it this way. I talk a lot about how people have to be friends in this work, because it is absolutely unreal, that all of a sudden, after 200 years, we're all like, let's engage in discussing aggressions in the workplace and talk about the things that have been like manifesting in your body. And let's be open about how we can just it's like, it's a crazy thing to do. So like for me, and any other community that is marginalized, although I have lots of marginalization in my identity, you know, there are parts of me that are extremely powerful, whether it is my cisgender, nature, my sexuality, my English as a first language, my socio economic status, right, I have a responsibility to feel the things that those who are marginalized are feeling. And I have to step in with them, like you said, going into the hole and coming out together. That's our responsibility.

Robert Gould: 51:48

I think we talk about capacity all the time. And I think that leadership is the key to building capacity. And if you need capacity to take on this physical work, emotional work, and change work, you actually have to get rid of something else, that's part of your duties that may not be as high of a priority. And I think that's the key, I would say, to any organization. And I found that just thinking inside out and just saying, Let's do what's best for the student. And that's the biggest change, I think, in our profession that we need to do we say we're student centered. But we can't prove that we are doing the best thing for students all the time. And that's something we can work on to be better.

Nicole Johnson: 52:36

In line with the idea of focusing on something that we can do better. Amos and I talked a little bit about personal healing for black and brown folk, I've been recognizing that healing our own personal healing is integral to any of this unfolding. So in order for us to have sustainability in this work, you and I have to consistently be working on our methods of self care, but also like, personal enthusiasm around remaining in these spaces for however long so that then there are mentors and other people who can engage with future generations, right. And I know that I have to take these consistent breaks, where I am away from predominantly white communities, or I have to create affinity groups spaces that I can feel are actually a part of the NYU ethos. Not every single person is good at building, like self sustaining community and fuel for themselves as they're navigating systemic oppression, right? I feel like it's the main barrier for so many people because you have to like, add another job of creating something that's going to sustain you in order for you to keep moving forward with dismantling systemic oppression. But I am realizing that as we commit to our health, and we believe in the mission of what your personal mission is, and staying with your program, if we stick with that, and we tell ourselves that story that we will stay around, and we will be of service to shifting systems and creating new environments, but it's about really committing to that with diligence and enthusiasm in order for it to kind of continue to manifest.

Amos Joseph: 54:16

I think another thing you can add to that is like the hiring practices thereafter, and like, how quick or how slow institutions are in that regard. And then like in what ways are they sourcing candidates for hire? Because again, like in the field of student affairs, right, in the field of Res Life, specifically, you can very well see a large variety of cinefest professionals that are black and brown, outside of that realm or domain, not so much. And so, if you think about where are we showing up the most it's it's in spaces where humans a human interaction is most valuable, and it's most needed.

Nicole Johnson: 54:56

And I'm sure that every single level of have a higher ed hierarchy feels this sense of being disadvantaged, and not being heard and therefore not hearing other people underneath them. I think if anything, there's this need for E egalitarian communication amongst students, deans, provosts, Student Affairs leaders, presidents essentially bringing people into a room who just don't have the same lived experience when they're in higher ed, and allowing there to be an E egalitarian decision making process around a lot of things, including budget, it's something that I know many people are not ready to give up, to bring transparency to budgets, to allow students to make to have conversation with decision makers about the ways that they would like to experience higher ed. I've seen it happen every once in a while when something horrible happens in the world. And they're like we need to bring in students to talk about this. They love bringing us in to talk about traumatic events. But it's difficult when you know that we have just been in a power hoarding space for such a long time that they prefer, and they feel more comfortable. When power is unclear. Like who makes these decisions. Not everyone knows, therefore this is how it always has been right? That ambiguity is a habit that we've built, that I think even our bodies intrinsically feel is true. It's so unfortunate that that habit has been with us since the inception of America, and then the perpetuation of corporations and institutions like slavery that then translate into education institutions, like higher ed and corporations that we have today, like franchises. It's just the same habits. And I spoke to someone earlier about this idea of like, maybe even we play play into the habit, because our ancestry essentially remembers that therefore our bodies remember, Oh, we must be subject to it. Therefore, there aren't that many of us who are like, I have an issue with this, I want to talk about this, right, our body is even like, allowing us to be taken advantage of because of the habits of our history. Just as the habit of other people's history and oppressors history is to maintain understanding and central knowledge of power. Instead of dispersing it,

Amos Joseph: 57:30

I think, for students as a whole, understanding what's going on at the institution, being able to talk to your leaders, your provost, your Dean's, etc, in a way where you can feel that this conversation is fruitful, as opposed to it being you just talking just to talk and they appeasing you by listening, or pretending to listen, I think a lot of the communication that's missing in higher education spaces, doesn't allow for students to feel that level of empowerment, that level of, yeah, my voice actually does make a difference here. And so it's equity, of knowledge of information of, of knowing, like all the ins and outs of college before we even get there, to be able to be successful, to be able to be able to have these fruitful conversations that will lead to the change that we need. And it's just not fair for students who didn't have parents or that have family members who've gone through the process to express that exists, that channel exists, and the complicity of the scenes and Provost now who just don't want to expand the voices that they're hearing from. And so yeah, it's a combination of that, for me, that is just frustrating.

Nicole Johnson: 58:53

In this part of the conversation, Saha and I tried a little exercise in imagination.

Saha Guerrero: 59:00

You know, I wish I would really like be listening in on this call is someone like Andy Hamilton, President NYU, because it's really important and really interesting that we're pursuing different degrees at the same institution, I'm getting my bachelor, you're pursuing your doctoral degree. And we have had such similar experiences when it comes to dealing with white supremacy culture, as manifested in the classroom, and how we feel that it's our duty to take it on when leaders in particular white leaders are a bit complacent on the issue where they don't see it. And even if we are being vocal, they're not acting on it, or they might use empty rhetoric, but concrete action is not taken. Or it's up to, let's say, student government to do something, but it's not proposed by the president or the leaders, you know. So I think someone like any animals that should be listening to this call and understand that these are lived experience. Suze, they're real, they're happening right now. And they ought to be brought to the forefront. And it's just a loud alarm, but they have a lot of work to do. And they need to start taking actions with their own hands. Obviously, we're always going to be pushing for change no matter what. That's my, my duty is, as a citizen as a student is, as me I saw myself that's what I live by some of my values, but they ought to be doing something and they can learn a thing or two from all that we've been talking about today.

Nicole Johnson: 1:00:28

I think it's about telling the right story, and then telling it over and over again, until it penetrates the soul. And that's when they can say, Okay, I realize that I'm hearing it finally, because they've seen it. They just aren't hearing it. Ideally, when they hear it in that core part of their understanding of themselves, their power and their privilege, they will then be able to make new decisions about how they lead. It's so difficult. It requires so much grace to tell the same story over and over again to the same people. But I think that we got four years we might be able to do it. Me.

Amos Joseph: 1:01:04

Oh, we're gonna do it. Don't worry. We are

Nicole Johnson: 1:01:06

Yes. The edify podcast is produced by Giovanna productions and Harriet Tubman effect, hosted by me, Nicole Johnson sound designed by Tony Ponella. Our production team includes Adam Shaff. Anya Jimenez Belen Moyano is our executive producer and music by Evan Chrommet.